XTC Back Porch

spidermage · Wasp Star Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 4423

donavan wrote:

I just wish we could stop using labels and just care about each other a bit more..

I find it hard to argue with that.

Labels are a two-edged sword (brought to you by clichesuk.com). On the one hand they serve as unquestioned rallying points, as excuses for flag-waving, and as reasons for people to dig in their heels and avoid listening to the other side. They can also weaken a movement's effectiveness. The far left in the UK has, in my opinion, always been rendered less potent by factions and in-fighting, some fair amount of which has been over the possession of labels.

On the other hand, labels can be a convenient shorthand. When I say that I am a socialist you all have, I assume, a rough idea of what my views are (I believe, for instance, in public ownership of essential services; in strong regulation of business; in workers' rights and strong unions; and in taxation for the purposes of social redress). I do, however, find myself out of step with modern socialism in certain respects. I do not, for example, have any time or respect for Islamic fundamentalism - and am bewildered as to why other socialists do. Also, I do not subscribe to the view that Julian Baggini calls 'Cod Chomskyism' or 'Knee-jerk Pilgerism'*. So the label is nothing more than a rough guide.

* Baggini (in his book Complaint) describes the outcome of the view thus: "How does one decide whether to back the USA or its enemies in any given conflict? That's easy: never back America. Because its motivations are never benign, you can be sure you've backed the right horse if you side against it, even if the enemy appears to be evil."

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Jeezus, you dense Limey

miles aweigh · Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:41 am Post subject:

spidermage wrote:

There is an odd conundrum about belief in general. We hold people to be responsible for their beliefs; we judge them badly if their beliefs are racist, misogynist or grossly bigoted. In a sense, however, we are merely the passive recipients of our beliefs. We do not choose them. If something is plain to our senses or our experience, or if we are convinced by an argument, then we form a belief - and we are powerless to resist doing so.

It is true that we do sometimes say things such as, 'I choose to believe X', but, on the whole, this is a figure of speech that usually means something like I prefer not to question this any further. It may be that some people, in some specialised cases, are able to turn their beliefs on and off, but most of us, most of the time, can not do so. Stare at something in front of you, and try to make yourself believe that it is not there - you just can't do it (and if you can, it might be a sign of some psychological disorder).

We also might condemn someone for their beliefs because we think that they have not tried hard enough to seek out the facts, to educate themselves, and to eradicate beliefs that we hold to be false or repellent. Their failure to do these things may, however, be the result of their other firmly held beliefs, and again, if we are the passive recipients of our beliefs, then they cannot be condemned for them.

Alternatively, suppose that the person proves to us that they have made strenuous efforts to verify their beliefs, but points out that they are simply more convinced by the 'pros' than by the 'cons'. Even if their beliefs are of the ugliest and most repugnant kind (that the Holocaust was a good thing, and that it's a shame that it was stopped, for example), how can we condemn the person for these beliefs, when they are not responsible for having them. After all, we either find an argument convincing, or we do not. If we are convinced by an argument, then we cannot help but believe its conclusions.

So here's the addendum to Drea's question: are people responsible for what they believe, or do our beliefs merely 'happen to us' as a result of our experiences and of our being convinced by argument?

I think we may be indoctrinated, and so our beliefs are not originally chosen per se. I don't think this means we are innocent of any negative outcome that results from our beliefs or the actions we take based upon them. We may have been given a belief that our race, gender or religion are superior to those of others. Past the point of our youth though, we have had exposure to contrary beliefs and at a certain point we do choose to hold to them, reject them or moderate them. Just as we hold adults responsible for their crimes to a greater extent than teenagers (or used to anyway) after a certain point we are responsible for what we believe.

As I said before, our experiences determine what we think, but we can be open to life and belief altering experiences or closed to them. That is also a choice. If we want to believe, for instance, that women are not as intelligent as men, we can make sure we don't go to college, visit libraries, listen to radio and television programs with intelligent women discussing complex topics, etc. Any of these experiences would demonstrate the fallacy of our belief. We can instead hang out a bar with other men who share a misogynist viewpoint, tell stories that reinforce the accepted mythology by example and refer to those later if our belief is questioned. Our own experiences too may be referenced, but if we choose only what reinforces what we WANT to believe, and reject the experiences that challenge our mindset, we possess what we think. We have chosen to believe, and are responsible for it.

There are possible exceptions, the proverbial man living in a cave with such limited experiences that he is not responsible, but this is not commonplace. Perhaps even whole countries where the governments control information so completely that indoctrination is absolute. Still, the average individual is given enough to choose his beliefs. If he wants to believe anything, he can find others to share and support it.

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I know what it's like to be Peter Fonda.

Tall Wall · Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject:

I once had a particularly neurotic friend who suffered from an uncontrollable compulsion to have an opinion about everything. And I mean everything. Even things he had absolutely no experience or knowledge of. It was like he had zero tolerance for 'not knowing what to believe'. Which made me see beliefs as filling the vacuum of uncertainty. The more insecure one was, the more numerous and rigid one's beliefs.

But then again, some insecure people are afraid of committing themselves to an opinion, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

Great.
Now I don't know what to believe......

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Woof

Spastic Minnow · Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject:

I don't believe in Santa Claus.
I don't believe in spite.
I have no use for beauty dolls.
Especially on this night.
I don't believe in miracles.
I don't believe in lies.
I don't believe in hologram
For I am the Frizzle Fry.

I don't believe in charity.
I don't believe in sin.
And if you don't believe in me,
We'll play this tune over again.
I don't believe in pinochle
And I don't believe I'll try.
I do believe in Captain Crunch
For I am the Frizzle Fry.
Yes I am the Frizzle Fry.

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...in my pants

spidermage · Wasp Star Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 4423

Tall Wall wrote:

I once had a particularly neurotic friend who suffered from an uncontrollable compulsion to have an opinion about everything. And I mean everything. Even things he had absolutely no experience or knowledge of. It was like he had zero tolerance for 'not knowing what to believe'. Which made me see beliefs as filling the vacuum of uncertainty. The more insecure one was, the more numerous and rigid one's beliefs.

But then again, some insecure people are afraid of committing themselves to an opinion, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

Great.
Now I don't know what to believe......

Perhaps the sign of a stable personality is the ability to say 'I don't know' without feeling that one is, in any way, diminished by the admission.

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Jeezus, you dense Limey

Usagi · Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject:

You may be very right about that, Spidey. It takes a lot of courage, i.e. a stable personality to be able to admit to one's own imperfections, seeing them not as weaknesses but as opportunities to develop oneself...

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The final test of a gentleman is his respect for those who can be of no possible service to him.
(William Lyon Phelps)

Mr Tein · Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:16 pm Post subject:

Usagi wrote:

You may be very right about that, Spidey. It takes a lot of courage, i.e. a stable personality to be able to admit to one's own imperfections, seeing them not as weaknesses but as opportunities to develop oneself...

Very True. In England there is a folk song that pertains to this very observation and is adopted as a chant as follows

We're sh*t and we know we are
We're sh*t and we know we are
We're sh*t and we know we are
We're sh*t and we know we are

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Blonde pride

hummingbird · Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject:

Probably I believe what I believe because it is comforting. When you're a child it is rewarded to fall in line and accept or believe what you're told. So if I can't rationally punch through, then believing is my feel good fall back.

Spoony · Drums and Wires Joined: 04 Sep 2008 Posts: 93

I believe the safest bet is to believe in very little.

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"."

dansaltdog · Black Sea Joined: 10 May 2008 Posts: 103

spidermage wrote:

Alternatively, suppose that the person proves to us that they have made strenuous efforts to verify their beliefs, but points out that they are simply more convinced by the 'pros' than by the 'cons'. Even if their beliefs are of the ugliest and most repugnant kind (that the Holocaust was a good thing, and that it's a shame that it was stopped, for example), how can we condemn the person for these beliefs, when they are not responsible for having them. After all, we either find an argument convincing, or we do not. If we are convinced by an argument, then we cannot help but believe its conclusions.

So here's the addendum to Drea's question: are people responsible for what they believe, or do our beliefs merely 'happen to us' as a result of our experiences and of our being convinced by argument?

So if it is true that a person has been convinced of their belief by pros and cons, then surely we should all hold the same beliefs. If one's belief has arisen from a formula of good or bad, right or wrong then it should only be a matter of discussion/argument for all of us to come to the same conclusions about what we believe. If your argument about socialism is strong enough then it would be hard for me to disagree with it, therefore I should be inclined to believe the same as you, but if however my argument about right wing liberalism is the more convincing then you would change your belief. But we don't all hold the same beliefs.

If it is our other beliefs which stop us being convinced by argument then it should be possible to work through those beliefs using argument too.

I can only draw from this that it must be more than merely a set of pros and cons that establish our belief... if this is so then we must be responsible for our beliefs.

It is possible however to claim a belief but not actually believe it. The claim that belief in capitalism to be good for the planet can be made by anybody who simply wishes to hang on to their wealth. Whilst others choose simply not to listen to argument no matter how convincing it might be. Both would be considered to be responsible for their beliefs

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hot diggity dog

dansaltdog · Black Sea Joined: 10 May 2008 Posts: 103

As for what I believe...

Well I just believe what ever Mrs Saltdog tells me to believe.

...Its just easier that way Shhh!

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hot diggity dog

malibu69 · Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:36 pm Post subject:

Great discussion! I really am enjoying the thoughts people have.

Just to add my little bit, (not disagreeing with many of the things said, especially the stuff about seeking confirmation to the things we believe and the issues of comfort), I think belief is heavily influenced by language, not just culture. For instance, in many languages, Inshallah is said as part of many sentences (if God wills it) and this is said also in Italian (se dio vuole) and this standardised phraseology reflects quite a bit about hopes, expectations and the actual control people have over things. And that's only one example. We come into a world where language already exists, and we have to fit into that.

As to my personal beliefs, they are pretty ingrained, and I think that it is a useless task to convince me to change them, but I think this is more a question of personality than the thoughts being right per se or me knowing precisely why I am so convinced. I do tend to think they are right though, because at some point I put them to a test.

But, I am pretty much a materialist in that I don't believe much in spirit, and when energy leaves a living thing it is gone forever. Particles are far more convincing.

miles aweigh · Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:58 pm Post subject:

malibu69 wrote:

Great discussion! I really am enjoying the thoughts people have.

Just to add my little bit, (not disagreeing with many of the things said, especially the stuff about seeking confirmation to the things we believe and the issues of comfort), I think belief is heavily influenced by language, not just culture. For instance, in many languages, Inshallah is said as part of many sentences (if God wills it) and this is said also in Italian (se dio vuole) and this standardised phraseology reflects quite a bit about hopes, expectations and the actual control people have over things. And that's only one example. We come into a world where language already exists, and we have to fit into that.

As to my personal beliefs, they are pretty ingrained, and I think that it is a useless task to convince me to change them, but I think this is more a question of personality than the thoughts being right per se or me knowing precisely why I am so convinced. I do tend to think they are right though, because at some point I put them to a test.

But, I am pretty much a materialist in that I don't believe much in spirit, and when energy leaves a living thing it is gone forever. Particles are far more convincing.

Great to have you posting again! Excellent point about language. We constantly see the political and manipulative implications in the connotative use of words. Often to convince people to accept positions that are patently false, like the current health care "debate."

I think many of us who like to believe we are open minded, are more set in their beliefs than they realize, or want to admit.

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I know what it's like to be Peter Fonda.

malibu69 · Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject:

miles aweigh wrote:

I think many of us who like to believe we are open minded, are more set in their beliefs than they realize, or want to admit.

Hi miles! lovely to see you and your ideas and reflections are always so interesting and expressed so well!

I agree entirely with your above consideration, that most of us are set in our own beliefs, but would like to see ourselves as still being open to other ways of looking at things. I certainly know that while many might consider my thoughts as "radical" or something, I am adamant about them being "normal" and totally reasonable, so it is a struggle for me to accept and weigh new evidence or even things that I take as challenges to my views. But, debating is fun for the reason that you find out what you really believe once you start articulating it.

Also, there is a big difference in what we believe and what we say. I for instance have to hold a lot of things in, for reasons of them not being interpreted right, or it's not appropriate, or I maybe just don't feel like discussing things. If we all said what we really thought about everything, the world would be far less civil and we would always be at one another's throats!

Herr Doktor Kauboi · Go 2 Joined: 25 Feb 2009 Posts: 25

I believe very deeply in everything I think. Because it is true.

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Harder! Harder!
Scheisse! That was a little too hard. Help me hide the pieces, please.